That's not going to change in six months (which I learned). After I became a lead & manager, I was given a team in turmoil after a re-org and straightened that out. Sad but true Mini et al addressed this with the descriptions of the distinguishing traits you need to develop and demonstrate. Microsoft, Go to company page But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around?"1. I'm interested in hearing your stories of success, mentorship, and turning a career that was off-path back on-track. One of my august colleges uses the analogy of a trapeze artist. So all you're telling me is I can't count on you so why should I? I started in 2001 @ L62. One question a manager will think about before promoting you is how many times he had to clean up after you pissed off someone else - especially if it's someone on another team. This can play a bigger role even than how many times you broke the build, caused a bug, etc. Find the right team and manager.2. SoI'll repeat it again. We've negotiated thousands of offers and regularly achieve $30k+ (sometimes $300k+) increases. What I think may be worthwhile is understanding the circumstances of those anomalies and figuring out why they occur and how to "incent" management to ensure that they don't occur. But if your manager is undervaluing your work, and *that* is the factor that is making you unhappy, you can fix that. Full stop. Don't spend so much time worrying about the next notch on the ladder: your goal should be to learn new things, to get something cool done and to find things to do that are fun for you.2. Senior Director, Industry Advisor Life Sciences Salesforce Aug. 2020-Heute2 Jahre 8 Monate Zrich, Switzerland Building Go To Market Strategies; growing and driving industry thought leadership. Learning Curves and Disillusioned Learners: psychologists have known for years that skill acquisition tends to follow a typical learning curve. What does that look like in your mind? They will have thought this out. The education qualifications required for various roles for Technical track are: The highest job title in management track in Microsoft is "Vice President (VP)". IMHO. Biggest key for me was knowing when to leave a bad management situation and team. I hope Mini returns from his vacation soon :(The Windows division has a large number of people that were promoted to "Senior" PM/Test/Dev in the past year. So here's my 2 cents:Read this now and have a game plan for your 1:1s to tee up a deeper discussion at MYCD. While managers shouldn't be absolved of the responsibility, we do need to understand that your manager might not be able to help you. It makes a difference in your relationship. Add your salary anonymously in less than 60 seconds and continue exploring all the data. if they'd only stop doing X and start doing Y on a sustained basis, I could see it Microsoft: Citi Cuts Ests, Target On PC Slowdown. Some of them don't have a very good idea of what a Level 65 does since they have not had much experience with those promotions. I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. Judson Althoff. But it should definitely keep me up in the top of the class, and getting a nice review score + kudos + a job well done with results is a reward in itself (that I crave for more than the actual promotion).I have given this suggestion to Lisa, but I have not seen any action so far. For those impatient folks who want to move up every 18 months, watch out. +1 on the level balancing difference in subs.As someone who has transferred employees to/from corp/sub both directions and has promoted a bunch of folk, the corp level for a role is 2 numbers higher than the equivalent sub one. The funding for our project stopped and our vendor team of 28 people have been asked to leave immediately. Once they successfully cross the chasm theyll start over on the typical S-shaped learning curve at the new level again. You first have to be truthful with what direction you're going in and where you actually are trying to head. You can be a genius of blinding brilliance, but if you come from a boring product team, you "don't have much potential". Impossible. It took him at least two months to integrate. Here's how to find it. It going to be more about survival in the current business climate. Also, the way you achieve your commitments does affect the perception and recognition of your efforts. From my perspective (L67) here's what you need to nail:1. However L64 takes some time and L65 is very difficult. Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. This is the multiplier effect, or scope of influence that is often mentioned. Sign up on LinkedIn and join the Microsoft Employees or ex-MSFT employees groups and then you'll see them posted. Senior level executive excelling at increasing operational efficiencies, improving . an ex-manager used to tell me, if the org needs him to sweep the floor, he would ensure that he would be the best sweeper in the world (no offense to my janitor friends, just an expression). Experienced sales manager with skills in strategy, lead of direct reports, developing sales forecasts, products pricing and launching new products to the marketplace.<br>Proven abilities to manage key account relationships and large-scale projects.<br>Experienced in presenting to executive senior management, meeting with customers at CxO level and coordinating salesmen's Activities.<br><br . Secondly, finding a suitable mentor to help them overcome that weakness. You're in competition with everyone else in your org in your CSP. What worked well and what really horked things up for you? In the beginning, I volunteered for these tough areas that no one else wanted and over time, my brand became the fix it guy. But it is also clear that there are places at Microsoft where these skills are not required until higher.I have a 62 test somehow make it to dev with mediocre dev skills, social skills limited to indifference or hostility, who managed to delegate most of the hard work to a smart kid hired to work with him and he made it to 63. I'm just going to try and emphasize a few points here:* As mentioned by many folks, it is important to own your career and hence plan you promotion, discuss it with your manager, and most importantly follow up on it. sheesh, "We definitely need a new thread, things are starting to happen indeed. Less than a year is fast, but not unheard of. But, if you have the possibility of finding a position that you will really enjoy, where your goals and those of Microsoft are fairly close, then your long-term potential will be higher. Its difficult to transfer to a new position because at a high level, what group is going to take you on to a new position you have no experience in. The estimated total pay for a Senior Director at Microsoft is $500,742 per year. Think about why they're able to do that.-jcr. Things get thrown your way and you knock each and everyone of the challenges out of the park. There is always a manager who understands the underleveling of Office and old-Windows (hello Sinofsky - promos for all who stuck around regardless of merit!) You should be able to show the path to a goal, especially to collections of people who do not report to you. This number represents the median, which is the midpoint of the ranges from our proprietary Total Pay Estimate model and based on salaries collected from our users. When I finally figured out how to play well with others and was able to show some major cross-group gains in addition to my own leet prod dev skills, that's when I became a 63.63 to 64 was a bit of a slog -- I'd say more like a full-frontal assault on lazy management, actually :). First, they are moving *to* something that they think fits them better -- and bringing an enthusiasm for the new position to go with the better fit. Here is a nice place to start :-)http://guestgame.com/. Flip on the klaxons! Agree with all the comments that this is a great post, and was just as true 5 years ago as it is now.My story, which might help the college kids: I began my career at MS out of college as a 10/59, rocketed to 62 - and then sat.I left in 2002 and started building a career at other places, and can now look back at when I left, slap my hand on my head, and say of course I wasn't promoted - I did nothing to build a positive, defensible relationship with my skip-level mgr, and my real influence outside of my individual team was nonexistent. Senior Director Global Supply Chain Management transformation Supply Chain Operations SA Juli 2022-Heute9 Monate Lausanne Metropolitan Area Principal Consultant for an international. The person who puts you up for promotion and has promotion conversations with your skip level. You have the right stuff to succeed and Microsoft is very happy with you. Do it nicely. I think it's safe to say that I "own" the group of people under L63 in my group, but I usually take that as an opportunity for mentorship as opposed to an opportunity to poach someone else's cool project. That clarity may not always result in a promotion on the exact timeline you envision but if you're honest with yourself and have a good manager it really helps.I'm a 13 year Microsoft employee who lived through the bad old days of crappy managers. What is our competition doing? You might have the Microsoft Senior Career Stage Profile in front of you all marked up and broken into more sections in OneNote, but which ones matter most to your team? If you can't ever figure it out, and if you can't become a "favorite underling", then it's time to find a different group with people you can better relate-to. My rent contract was renewed in September and I have to find another person or risk loosing a 1000 bucks, Mini,Asshole managers aren't unknown at Apple, but when they appear, it doesn't take long before the rest of the organization figures them out and isolates them. When I gave notice, my PUM was in my office within an hour showing me stock levels at 65 and 66, willing to restructure my position pretty much to my liking. And as my experience shows, many teams do not even staff a senior. Thankfully, those are relatively uncommon. And, ironically, some titles make your manager automatically have to adjust your level after a certain time, in order to comply with certainly HR guidelines.- Buy your principal a coffee, hear everything, and dont follow everything. Yet, when you have 2 or 3 offers at the end of very hard interview loops, which one are you going to choose: the team that listens to HR or the team that listens to the market? Do not accept promises, or you will be already disappointed with your new team as soon as some promises dont materialize (and believe me: you will lose your patience long before some promises materialize). But if you think you should be promoted and your manager doesn't, you shouldn't sit and seethe -- you must understand what it will take. Oldest and (still) best advice I've gotten is move around a lot; no two teams' cultures or needs are the same, so you have something to offer wherever you look. My first year I thought for sure I would sit at L61 for another year, but to my surprise I was promoted to L62 without even a full FY under my belt. But people who move often grow faster because of two things (in my opinion.) Senior Director, Head of Data Sciences VMware Aug 2014 - Jul 20217 years Bengaluru Area, India Global Leader and Head of Data Sciences Lead Data scientist teams across Bangalore, Bulgaria, Palo. I'd like to see a transition plan from you in 2 days". SQL is one of the groups that has consistently delivered quality and growth. Ill answer first question later in this comment. When I was an IC, it was tough technical problems or simply critical problems that no one else wanted. By persist, I do not mean being happy to be at the same <63 level for 3+ years for exmaple. Don't be afraid to talk to your skip level manager regularly in such a situation, not to get promoted but because he can better help you grow.4. * One final important thought that hasn't been mentioned here and that is very dear to my heart is one that is not only specific to 63 but also to 65+, 66+, and 67+, and it is about moving up when you are a female at MSFT. Title doesn't matter, that's a job description. If you are in office, you will have lots of experience promoting people up to 62 but after that it's a rare event. If you can make the argument about the job - and you're in a position of strength, obviously harder now than in years past, you can make the case. Its above level 64 that things get tough, but getting to 64 isn't difficult. If you think you will follow the management career path then get in such role as early as possible. Never "threaten" to leave or waive external offers in my face unless you're fully prepared to be escorted out of the building that minute. Understand not just what needs to happen, but WHY. And in your answer, there's a kicker follow-up: not only what you need to do to justify being promoted to L63, but to succeed in comparison to your L63 + L64 peers. Somebody help me out here. If you want to succeed at Microsoft (or anywhere else where you have a boss), the most important thing you can do is figure out exactly what your management wants from you and then make sure you deliver it in spades.Junior people often make the mistake of thinking this means "I will do my job to the best of my ability" and then they go off and work really REALLY hard at things their management doesn't find nearly as important as they do and so come review time these folks are *shocked* to hear that all of their blood, sweat and tears did not make the impression they'd hoped. There were times when I was promoted more slowly than I probably could have been, but I am very happy with where I am now, and I am still growing. Step outside of your comfort zone, own PM, own QA, become great at what you do, and do what you love - and the promo will come. That means, know what people think about you and what they don't. Facebook, Go to company page So I cultivate relationships with my manager's peers; their support helps tremendously. Just pick one Job id, prepare for it and then go for internal. What advice do you need? Senior Account Executive | Director | Sales & Marketing. Promotion budgets of 65 and above has been kept intact.Can somebody from HR confirm this?If true then this post is quite untimely. But if you can collaborate with others you can help accomplish much more than youll ever be able to accomplish individually. Microsoft is so unique (and not in a good way) that you need to have blogs like this and focus on managing your career inside the hobbesian nightmare, rather than making good and cool software. The only thing you learn is your bucket, and roughly where in the bucket you fit based on your numbers. As long as that's the case, I doubt anything would change.The method that this is done is troubling also. If you get caught in a review and someone hits a fastball by you and you stumble, the people above you suddenly have fears that you might stumble when they and you are in front of the person who controls their careers. Thanks.Sorry mini -- I meant the content of the comment I referenced, not the content of your original post (which I'm in violent agreement with). jcr said >Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. Propose a new one and spend a day in implementing it. The true professional with loads of potential is left to Sulk. So one big part is do good work, but another is don't do bad work.I think it's a very good idea to ask for a promotion. Mgmt, MSFT levels: CEO > VP > Partner(Director) > Principal > Sr. Eng > Eng 2 > Eng 1. work on your visibility. I have only required two strategies. You want to test more cases than he does, you want to build something that draws users to what you're doing more than to his.Having part of the bonus be for how the team succeeded relative to the other teams might focus competition towards the competition and not exclusively on co-workers.Add up the review scores of each team member and rank teams. While I was pleased with the attention, I was also rather upset. Most gravitate to safe work that's in their comfort zone or work they enjoy. If you have your mnanager in your pocket, you cna achieve greate heights in life. -- Business Transformation Executive with demonstrated experience in managing and implementing large transformation programs through all levels of the organization in order to build growth, grab new market opportunities or reduce costs.<br><br>- Building on Solid experience in Functional roles (Sales, Marketing, Delivery Operations) to drive those programs <br>- Sales Oriented Business . That is one aspect where they are forced to build fake relationships with directors and GMs to get promoted and unfortunately those who maintain good relatiship with them get promoted. So, focusing on the customer instead of the competition is "incoherent blithering?" It's also a well-known fact that there is a disparity in levels between Office and now Sinofsky's Windows and the rest of the company, especially below 65 level.Can anyone elaborate on that? don't make enemies), change jobs about once every 3-4 years, and do your job reasonably wellfor a decade. Buy a Principal a coffee. But they don't have the same visibility that your manager has in your specific org. We have to reduce billions of dollars of cost. The reason why they were 65's are:1. I saw several far more technically skilled people in the group who deserved this that were passed over. Now a VP at a small cap (and growing, yes in this economy) company. Let's slim down Microsoft into a lean, mean, efficient customer pleasing profit making machine! senior director can be L66 or L67. Why does the company reward and keep these numbskull managers that hold people back? They don't get defensive if their ideas are revealed to have flaws but rather delight in being able to move to a better solution. Many folks lurk longer in the 60-62 range because they are not challenged enough to move to the next level. No, L7 is 66-67. Stop thinking of your Mgr as your adversary and listen to what they are telling you. You'd do well to read it again:Success in business comes from serving your customers, not about beating your competition. The soft skills definitely matter. Thanks for keeping this focused. That is, its hard to define, but I know it when I see it. To the guy you said:I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. I think your comments on level 63 were interesting. At Level 66, Microsoft employees reported that nearly 40% of compensation was in the form of cash and stock bonuses. Joined MCS at level 60 and was immediately told that L61 would be years away. ask around for a good mentor or go to our internal mentor site to be matched with a mentor http://mentor/Mentor/user/mymentoring.asp. Finally I got involved and had a one/one with the employee during which I asked him why do you continually insist on doing Y when your mgr asks you to do X? I nearly fell of my chair when he said because I want to get promoted and I know that to get promoted I need to do Y. That's the wall you need to talk about, but the discussion would be very different than the L63 bump.And after 5+ years at L64, I finally just left. The hardest work item on his place was an expression parser that the team's architect wrote for him. Don't waste it. Additional pay could include bonus, stock, commission, profit sharing or tips. Many 62s (and 63s) make substantially more than 64s. So honestly, what is your boss's answer about if you'll reach L63? But it's no guarantee that all your peers will match. Help make it more accurate by adding yours. . Great post. My management tells me that this is normal and 2 years is "aggressive", but this is getting frustrating for me. It's a knife fight to 63. Promotion budgets of 65 and above has been kept intact.Promotion and raise budgets are going to be quite tight everywhere, not just at MS. Even with all good intentions, they can even be ineffective mentors (although I still highly recommend the mentoring program, as long as you change your mentor every year). I'm sure others here will clarify.And apparently we will all know more in January. Rather nice site you've got here. Mini himself is quite high level and knowledgable. L66 would be Principal or Sr Director. Add your salary anonymously in less than 60 seconds and continue exploring all the data. To go to L60 as an IC you need to show leadership in your group, proactivity in taking new challenges which affect the success of the group, and be a SME on your tech area (if in a tech role).L61 = M1 of a medium sized team or an IC role which influences the results of a v-team significantlyL62 = M2 or M1 of a large team, or a lead role for a large cross-group initiative (e.g. This is so that they can convert those positions to other discipline.i've seen this happening to at least 2 teams so far. My biggest struggle has been getting good feedback on where I need to grow. Most are management types whose only skill is sucking up. Don't just take a L63+ role because of the level. What are other groups doing? This is an opportunity to really do great work and innovate - learn to do your best work in the face of adversity and limited budgets and you will most likely to do well. That is, an S-shaped curve that is relatively flat at the bottom (slow start), then becomes very steep (steep acceleration), then becomes relatively flat again (plateau). At the beginning of each FY, I always asked, "I want to get Exceeded this year. You are now 20% closer to promotion just by a day of work :). Mini-Microsoft, Mini-Microsoft, lean-and-mean! Do a brownbag for your VP level group, record it and send out the link to everyone. great post mini. Be prepared for every possible question, scenario, disaster, etc. If he thought you were trouble already, though, telling him you are thinking about leaving is like asking for a ticket out of there.7. You've made 3 mistakes. Founded in 1969 by Dr. Bish Agrawal, ABC Consultants is the pioneer of organized recruitment services in India. I've changed jobs but came back to the group that's been the most supportive. I believe that the most fundamental difference between level 62 and 63 is in the realm of EQ (emotional quotient, see the book Working With Emotional Intelligence" by Goleman). Senior Director of Sales NEXT50 2022 - 6 Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates I am thrilled to announce that I started a new position as a Senior Director Of sales at Next50.. ;) I have one thing to add that might help some. You can forge a great partnership and accomplish a lot. Then they start pinging the manager on why and putting pressure on them to do something, move them up or out. In this testing times what will motivate the mgr to put you ahead of him/hers? My old boss was a 65 but his title was "principal director of engineering", new boss is the exact same level and job and his title is "principal engineering manager". Excuses and griping and bemoaning aren't the stuff that L63 contributors are made of. Attack problems within your own areas of influence proactively and generate that same good vibe among peers. Specifically, what did they accomplish, and what contributions do you see them doing to justify their promotion? Director can be applied to L65 or L66. Don't give up.I'd appreciate it if you'd do a similar post on the 65 to 65 transition. There is no better investment at Microsoft for tuning your career. If it doesn't, what could you add to make that work? So I guess I know what it takes go get to level 63. Up to that point the "what" you accomplish can get you pretty far and you get some wiggly room on the how. Of course everyone wants to be promoted every review, so don't bother asking right after your last promotion.What matters most is that you are doing what your manager thinks deserves to get you promoted. I've been told HR looks for employees that have been at their level too long. given that the resource is static. It's because you were playing catch-up to Apple, and playing Machiavellian games with the media companies instead of working on the issues that your customers were complaining about.Vista is still unreliable, unsecurable, and a massive pain in the ass to use on a daily basis. If you find a boss who likes the kind of work you can do, follow him/her wherever they go. Chris Capossela. I am going through some finanical hardships and is getting the level changed is the only way for a salary increase? By contrast, most directors don't have their own budgets, but need approvals from their VP to do just about anything. Thank you for reviewing my profile. Entry level (4,718) Associate (1,976) Mid-Senior level (40,085) 3. Let's connect and I will happily share more about my background and accomplishment and how I can contribute to the success of your organization. VPs may well number in the hundreds at a huge place . * Leaving the company - oh, the all too easy escape: I have seen that mentioned in quite a few comments. I say this because I have seen really smart people shunned because of 'house-on-fire' attitudes even when they were dead right. 1. If you push too hard or threaten to leave, you will be written off immediately. I am not saying the manager is trying to sabotage, but when push comes to shove will you get the impactful project. An accomplished and proven Director / Tech & Business Principal / Programme Manager / Business Partner / Service Delivery Manager with a wide-ranging skillset, experienced in leading teams to success. This will only lead us to a healthy and balanced distribution of levels across genders. Mini, as good as your writeup is, there is too much emphasis on this level promo business in MS, and I have seen my fair share of people that have been burnt by it. It's a good time to flip back through that. The "how" now has broader impact. In general, people are not leveled, jobs are. Some considerations, based on my own career:- The best way to get to level 63 is moving around, and getting promotions as you move. Here are my thoughts on the Level 62 to Level 63 transition in the product groups: 1. I have seen and known many of my own peers who don't get promoted because of potential but the number of people you know in the leadership team. In this scenario, the senior director might have more responsibilities and be in charge of a larger part of the organization than a typical director. Outside of those two situations, I have never asked for a promotion. >> You forgot "never ask for a promotion".That's the absolute worst advice one can give to a Microsoft employee, IMO.
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